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Transforming the Business of Healthcare

Healthcare is changing, and not just because of the pandemic. For years, there has been a growing trend of consumerism in healthcare – meaning that the industry is shifting from serving “passive patients to empowered consumers,” as Kevin Mahoney MBA ’15, DBA ’18, explains.

People are looking for convenient, quality healthcare within their own communities, and even within their own homes. So as patients become more likely to visit urgent care than an ER, and big retail giants are poised to offer primary care alongside frozen pizza and sweatpants, the business of healthcare is heading towards a big transformation. 

In this episode of Catalyst, Mahoney, MBA ’15, DBA ’18 and CEO of the University of Pennsylvania Health System, shares his view of how hospitals are changing. He sheds light on how consumerism is affecting the patient experience, what it means for the cost of healthcare and where the future might lead. 

Resources: 

Full Podcast Transcript 

Host: Welcome to Catalyst, the podcast of Temple University’s Fox School of Business. I’m your host, Tiffany Sumner. For years, there has been a growing trend of consumerism in the healthcare industry. People like the ease of going to a local pharmacy for a flu shot and the ability to buy glasses online at retailers like Warby Parker instead of going to the optometrist. They want that same convenient, affordable and accessible experience when they come to a hospital for services. 

Today’s guest Kevin Mahoney, CEO of the University of Pennsylvania Healthcare System and a Fox School alumnus discusses how the healthcare industry can apply retail principles to provide a more holistic experience for patients. For Kevin, delivering healthcare services in the way today’s consumer expects is a priority for Penn as it works to deconstruct the existing system and provide a more consumer-driven experience. 

Hi Kevin, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s a pleasure to have you on Catalyst.

Kevin: Tiffany, thanks for having me. I’m really looking forward to our time together and hopefully, I can convey some of the—I call them seismic trends that are taking place in healthcare right now.

Host: So, when I think about healthcare, I think of all the doctors and nurses and support staff who work so hard to get us through the pandemic. But I imagine that healthcare is on trend with other industries. It’s changing—in part due to the pandemic but also because people expect to receive products and services differently now. I had the chance to review the dissertation you wrote while in the Fox DBA program which focuses on the rise of consumerism and healthcare. Can you start by explaining what consumerism is in healthcare and define its principles?

Kevin: The Wikipedia definition of consumerism is an accumulation of material goods. You’re creating a product that you hope consumers will buy. Few people go into healthcare and say, ‘I’m going to go buy appendicitis this week’ or ‘I’m gonna buy a heart attack this week.’ So it’s not that traditional definition. 

I think consumerism in healthcare is providing a holistic experience to the patient that includes, not just great care, but also includes critically clear discharge instructions for when you go home. It includes an easy connection to your local pharmacy to get your medication. It includes hospitals and insurance companies working together to make access to healthcare easier—as opposed to, “I got to call 17 people to get an appointment” and “I’ve got to make sure that my insurance is being taken by this local hospital.” 

So consumerism is not an accumulation of goods, it’s the opposite. It’s the delivery of service in a manner that the consumer/patient expects, but more importantly, deserves. Because we’re talking about a basic human need, which is healthcare. So there are two ways of looking at a basic human need: they have to come to us or we want them to come to us. And I think consumerism is, yeah, you used to have to go to the emergency room because we’re the only emergency room in town. Now that there are urgent care centers and a lot of opportunities we need to respond so people want to come to our organization for services.

Host: As patients start to act more like consumers what does that mean for hospitals like Penn, and can you give me some examples of how this trend is changing the patient experience?

Kevin: Sure. I think it’s important, again, to recall the experience is critical but it’s still you have to get the right doctor, the right diagnosis, the right treatment that’s still tantamount to why people choose Penn because we are speeding the diagnosis figuring out what’s wrong with people and getting them the latest state of your cure is still our foundation but wrapped around that they wanna come in if their appointment is at 9:00 they wanna be seen at 9:00, not wait 30 minutes in the exam room for 9:30. If they pull into the building and they can’t find a parking spot again these things start getting irritating. Then you go into the office and they call you by the wrong name, or they don’t have your latest information. You go into the patient portal now and you can change your medication list. If you show up at the front desk and they aren’t looking at the latest list people start negatively reacting to that because that’s not how other industries are functioning. So I talk about meeting the patient in their environment which is increasingly ambulatory and virtual and also the ideal patient experience is when the right information is available to your doctor at the time we promise that we would deliver it. 

Host: So, there is an immediacy to just walking into a CVS that hospitals maybe aren’t able to provide that same experience.

Kevin: I think again it’s part of if I was going into healthcare right now, I went to Temple and got my MBA I did a traditional path forward, but we really need is more talent around logistics because current healthcare logistics over the last 100 years are you get in your car and you drive to a physical plant and that’s where you get your care. We tell all of our suppliers to drive to 34th and Spruce St. in West Philadelphia and drop off the supplies. Everything comes to the old-fashioned hospital and the new environment it’s not just the immediacy it’s that people want care delivered outside of the hospital walls, they want to live it in their home they want to deliver it on their iPhone. I’m in Florida, I need to see my doctor I don’t wanna fly back to Philly. I wanna talk to him I wanna get an X-ray in Naples, Florida, and have that X-ray sent to my doctor in Philadelphia.

Host: So how can hospitals deliver on that expectation?

Kevin: We need to use the same energy that we’ve put into creating even better technology to cure people, we need to put that same energy into a digital transformation around the patient experience. We have to also lobby. So much of what happens in healthcare is regulated overly regulated by the state, by the city, by the federal government—those regulations don’t apply to many of our competitors. CVS doesn’t have this same state regulation that we have so we have. We as an industry have to do a better job of lobbying state senators and state representatives as to why they need to change these rules. Well, there’s some risk in doing that because regulations always benefit the incumbent, not the disruptor, it’s a two-edged sword. They also keep my industry harder for people to penetrate. But again, the patients are demanding a different experience and getting rid of some of the current restrictions that hospitals operate under I think will be very beneficial as we make that move forward.

Host: So, is this an example of something like why I’m more likely to purchase my eyeglasses at Warby Parker than, say, my eye doctor?

Kevin: I think it’s a great example, let’s use ophthalmology because I think it shows the deconstruction of the healthcare system to a more consumer-driven experience. I got my first pair of glasses—my wife said, “You missed the turn,” and I said “What turn?” so I then realized I needed glasses—I went to the ophthalmologist. The doctor did my prescription and he said, “Out there in the lobby, in the case, pick out a pair of glasses.” I think there were ten pairs, they were all plastic. There was one cool like John Lennon pair but for the most part, they were just chroma glasses. But that was a choice, I had there was nowhere else to go. 

Fast forward, now, not only do most people seeing ophthalmologist not go the doctor for their eye test, but if you go to Warby Parker you stare at the screen and go they’ll give you the prescription virtually. So people are not lining up at the doctor’s office to get eyeglasses and exams and, frankly, it used to be let’s go to the mall we’ll go to vision works. We’ll go to the mall and get our glasses. Now so many of us as, you pointed out, we get them off the Internet and they’ll send you five. where I started from you had to go out to the lobby and there was a choice of ten. Going to Warby parker they’ll mail you five for free and you can try them on and mail him back. Like, it is such a revolution. Again, what Penn stands for—we’re trying to come up with cures for blindness, we’re trying to work on macular degeneration that that high acuity but people are comparing us to Warby Parker. They want the Warby Parker experience for this high acuity care and that’s a challenge for us to overcome as an industry.

Host: That’s a great segue into my next question, which is: what happens to the cost of healthcare when more patients end up at Warby Parker, Walmart, or Wegmans for their care?

Kevin: If it’s coordinated, I think ultimately the costs will go down. The challenge that we have is, how do we take these multiple delivery systems now and make sure the information is shared back? So if while you’re looking at the screen at Warby Parker and they notice there’s something in your eye field. In my old example, the doctor would have seen it. The doctor would know Warby Parker is not yet able to do the delivery of medical care; it still has to be done by the physician—the trained physician. So a big part of our challenge is how do we share information. Look at OpenTable. You going to OpenTable and there are 50 restaurants. Can you imagine if Penn and Jefferson and Temple everybody had to sit down and we negotiated we’re all going to be on the same website looking can pick and choose their cardiologist? It’s almost incomprehensible that is our industry would ever get to that point. But I think that’s where we’re being pushed. But again the trick is going to be how do we make sure the EKG that’s done at Temple is shared with the doctor at Penn so they don’t have to repeat the study? Because as soon as you repeat the study, the cost of healthcare is going up. So, I think the digital transformation can lower the cost but only if we change a lot of the silos that currently exist in the current healthcare system.

Host: So, what would be a solution for this how can hospitals and the healthcare industry innovate to keep up with consumerism and keep costs down for patients?

Kevin: I think the main way we’re going to keep costs down is through better diagnosing because if we understand what has recently happened to the patient or is about to happen to the patient and can intervene that cost is always going to be less so that’s why at Penn and in many of the nation’s academic medical centers we’re spending more time on genetics and immune health so we have a large initiative that at Penn we call the immune health program you’ll come in and get a profile. We see this with COVID, right? Some people COVID is like a cold to them. For other people it’s devastating. Think back to March of 2020. If you remember you know we were talking about well maybe it’s the type of blood you have, you know? There is a lot written that if you were, I think, it was O positive you were less likely to have difficulty with COVID so we were trying to figure all that out. Our belief and everyone is going to have an immune health profile and it’s going to tell the doctor, I’m susceptible to inflammatory disease. I may look healthy at age 20 but the doctor is going to know beginning when I’m 30, 32- 33 they need to start looking for these signs because I’m going to be predisposed to that condition. So one way we’re going to get the cost down is again better diagnosing and I think that’s going to take place through genetic studies, the use of artificial intelligence to get through these massive datasets and pinpoint trends that the human eye or the human mind might not pick up. So quicker diagnosis, the other thing that’s going to dramatically change it is remote monitoring a lot of times you get admitted to the hospital because we wanna keep an eye on you for 24 hours you know we wanna get your heart rate for 24 hours, we wanna see how you doing if we used remote monitoring technology and you can stay in your house and have a physician or nurse practitioner or a nurse technician check your heart rate virtually as opposed to you have to be in the hospital that is gonna save a tremendous amount of money. We won’t have the physical plans that we’re building but second instead of a nurse taking care of five patients at one time maybe they can take care of ten patients at one time because if you’re doing the monitoring, you’re not going to be feeding them. You’re not going to be in and out of the room turn lights on and off it it’ll be much more efficient if we can really perfect hospital at home and remote monitoring.

Host: And what about I’m thinking of you know there’s a CVS and Walgreens across the street from each other in some instances in Philadelphia. What about more urgent care centers. Is that part of the innovation model that you think of?

Kevin: No it’s interesting and this was part of my paper at Fox was it around this, is an urgent care center a substitute for the emergency room, or is it incomplete care and you end up in the emergency room anyway? Then you end up paying two bills, not one. So there’s an old adage in healthcare that a built bed is a filled bed. More urgent care centers lead to more urgent care visits they don’t necessarily lead to a decline in emergency room visits. So again I think we need to figure out as an industry how these different delivery sites can be complementary to each other as opposed to additive because if they’re always additive even if it’s easy to get to and it’s nice it’s still going to cost more. Tiffany, you asked me a couple of times about how to lower costs in healthcare and it’s an interesting topic because you have to compare unit costs and marginal cost to total costs of delivery. so I was in a panel once and Mark Cuban from Shark Tank kept yelling at me that I didn’t know the price of an emergency room visit at 11:00 on a Saturday night and I said I don’t because the cost of that emergency room visit at 11:00 on a Saturday night is different than the cost of that emergency room visit Wednesday afternoon at 2:00. It’s different because, if there’s snow and there’s a lot of car accidents if you have more people coming in. If it’s an easy diagnosis you know the cost isn’t the same. So we have an industry we gotta spread fixed costs over every patient. One of the things that are underway in healthcare now that we have to be mindful of is as the local surgery center takes cases out of the hospital it’s making the hospital more expensive because you don’t have the same base to spread all the fixed costs over. We saw it starkly in March of 2020 when the federal government and the state government said you can no longer do elective procedures because we need the beds for COVID at Penn Medicine we lost $50 million in March, $150 in April, $50 in May and we were full and everybody was working as hard as we could for taking care of COVID but by regulation, we extracted out the patient said are necessary for us to spread our fixed costs so that we the marginal revenue will help offset the entire picture. So if you take that experience again as you extrapolate forward we as an industry have to be mindful and maybe this goes we talk about partnerships a little bit, Tiffany. If everyone just trying to steal everybody’s profitable business the only people left are gonna be hospitals that can’t survive. So, we have an obligation to be open 24/7 other parts of the industry do not have to be, so I need to figure out and other leaders need to figure out a symbiotic way that we’re gonna be able to work together or it’ll rapidly uncouple as it did back in the spring of 2020.

Host: Do you imagine that partnerships could also be a trend or part of this innovation that’s happening in healthcare and you know sort of thinking about Amazon partnering with certain mail systems or UPS to deliver where maybe in certain key areas they couldn’t deliver themselves or something like Warby Parker maybe only wanting to do the actual glasses but knowing that their customers might need an additional level of care from an optometrist, do you sort of see partnerships as an innovation that could take place in healthcare?

Kevin: I’m gonna put you down through the board seat at the Penn Work Partnership. I absolutely think it’s how other industries interact with each other so I think there’s a lot of mutuality and a lot of partnerships that exist in other industries they have to creep into healthcare because again I think it’s the only way we’re truly going to get the cost of care that we’re delivering down and we shouldn’t try to be all things to all people I just I need to make sure it’s under a coordinated umbrella. An example at Penn Medicine Radner we build a large surgery center we’re putting up a hotel beside it so patients can have their procedure they come in the night before and say the hotel walk across they don’t have to worry about driving and parking and all that they get a good night’s sleep case gets done then go back to the hotel room for a night two nights we can watch them from our command center to make sure that they’re the rehabbing OK so one thing about hotels and hospitals as partners but I think you’re gonna see that take place in in in the future we develop COVID watch in March of 2020 we realize that everyone was coming to emergency room they were coming to emergency room and a lot of them were sick so they were spreading the infection they were interacting with the healthcare heroes that you mentioned early on the nurses and doctors and we realized for the overwhelming majority of the patients they didn’t need to come to the emergency room they were coming because a) they were scared, b) they might have to get tested they didn’t know what these symptoms meant. Remember it was confusing at the time, so we developed COVID watch which was an app. We gave it to the patient and we said fill this out every hour it has an algorithm behind it if you need to come to the hospital. That app is going to tell us and we’re gonna get in right away if you don’t need to come to the hospital you’re gonna stay at home and we’re gonna monitor you through COVID watch. Our team built that in about nine days but we then turned around and said all the hospitals in Philadelphia you can have this because there was no competitive advantage for us at Penn to say come to Penn because we got this cool app during a global pandemic that nobody heard before. It was beneficial to Philadelphia and Mainline Health began to use it that everybody used that to keep people out of the hospital and hopefully keep the infection down. I’m hopeful that I’m optimistic that as an industry with the right leadership emphasize in the right areas of cooperation that that will be able to overcome this.

Host: And what about bringing care to the patient, you did say earlier there’s an emphasis on meeting them where they are. How do you think the pandemic has changed that and is that a focus of innovation in the future?

Kevin: I think it’ll be a sea change perhaps not it’s innovative to the healthcare industry it’s old hat for most industries that trend is going to continue and it’s going to accelerate even faster. In Pennsylvania more and more of our residents or leaving the high net worth residence or moving to Florida so then we’ll pay personal income tax, but the doctor is still in Philadelphia and again they don’t want to fly back and forth every six months so we’re going to have to figure out an innovative way to deliver care from Philadelphia in Boca Raton for patients that one is having pain medicine 365 days a year. Some may call that innovative I think it’s more again consumerism of trying to make sure the patient has the experience they need you can also take that and this ties in a little bit to partnerships hospital 54th and Cedar in West Philadelphia has a proud tradition of serving that community for reasons economic societal and otherwise it could no longer survive as a freestanding hospital because the number of patients that are actually being admitted to the hospital or declining so we stepped in together with Children’s Hospital, Blue Cross, Public Health Management Corporation and we’re reimagining that historic hospital not as a hospital but as a healthy village in that healthy village is going to have in addition to the emergency room, in addition to behavioral health services provided by Children’s Hospital, in addition to a federally qualified health clinic. We’re hopeful it will also include affordable housing it’ll be the locus where people are going to go for diabetic education. In the old days, it was somebody owned that hospital and they ran it as a hospital compared to a shopping mall or virtual mall or if you have seven retail outlets under the same roof, so I think you’re going to see I don’t want to call it innovation because it that implies that like we’re inventing something new I think it’s the application of retail principles to healthcare delivery.

Host: So Kevin I’m sort of curious you know we’ve been talking in many ways about external innovation partnerships at locations logistics in the workforce at the hospitals and I’m asking this because I know you have an MBA and a DBA from Temple’s Fox School of Business I’m sort of curious what you think that experience has brought to your role in healthcare and how it’s influencing how you may see the workforce and the skills needed and desired for a successful future.

Kevin: So thanks I am a two-time proud Temple owl I’m taking yet another course in spring. I think Temple has provided a platform for my intellectual curiosity thinking through new way new ways of doing things and getting into a classroom I’ll be at some virtual now but getting in with other industries to talk about how they approach that so the DBA program you know one of my great classmates is in the bedding industry he owns a lot of retail stores that sell mattresses and as I started talking about retail and healthcare you wouldn’t think a mattress guy and a hospital guy would have anything in common, but when we got into the classroom we had a lot in common because we were trying to adapt to the patient experience. He was adapting to an industry also under change because you can also now buy mattresses online they could drop off at your house so it was amazing to me how many similarities they were in terms of how we thought about our business. The other thing that it is evidence to my workforce 42,000 strong when I keep saying we need to learn every day I think they can look at me and say well he’s practicing what he’s preaching because you know he keeps going through and pushing that so I think the Temple program has shaped me in remarkable ways and is so much of what I’m about is because I went through temple we have a workforce issue in healthcare I think a lot of its tide to the pandemic but it was also underway what well before that. Healthcare may be one of the few industries where professional people have to punch a clock you have to be there from 7 to 3 and you could pay for 3 to 11 you could pay for a shift doctorate of nursing and nurses with you know master’s degrees and all kinds of certificates but in the old way they got paid the same way as the traditional shift workers so the most innovative thing that we’re working internally within Penn Medicine right now is how to have the most talented engaged workforce and the only way we’re going to do that is to create a work environment that nursing and housekeepers and security guards and doctors want to work in constantly and it has to have both extrinsic monetary rewards, it also says a lot of intrinsic rewards at how’s it fit into their lifestyle, admission oriented so I think that’s probably the next big hurdle for healthcare. We talked about retail consumerism that’s a trend underway. But the hurdle is how do we have the workforce that can deliver on all this care.

Host: I’m not sure you’re aware of this pretty cool fact but right now four of the Philadelphia healthcare leaders are Fox alumni: you at Penn, Abhinav Rastogi at Temple Health, Rich Haverstick at Jefferson, and Dr. Alex Vaccaro at Rothman.

Kevin: I think that so many of the leaders across the healthcare industry are Fox school business alumni demonstrates that we’re taking concepts and we’re doing the practical application to real-life industries and there’s nowhere that’s more a cauldron of emotion than a hospital. Babies are being born very exciting patients are dying just incredibly sad and everything in between therefore the workforce also has a roller coaster which means you have to have leadership skills to keep that workforce showing up day in and day out even when it’s bleak and even when they are unable to practice self-care to the point. So, I think the Fox leadership skills that we taught or evidenced by my three colleagues that are running competitor hospitals the knowledge that we learn in terms of finance, human resources again we’re applying that the day we walk out the door and I think healthcare is one of the great learning labs and I think that’s why so many of that leadership positions are filled by Fox alum. 

Host: Are there other trends that are happening in healthcare that you’d like to discuss.

Kevin: There’s a great book out Tiffany it’s called 2030 and it’s written by my good friend Mauro Guillen, and he talks about trends that are underway. One of the trends that are underway as it relates to the workforce is for the first time population has gone negative population growth so it’s a real question as we age in the old economy there was always more people coming into the workforce that could take care of us so a real question we have is who’s going to take care of us as we get older if more children are being born and I think you’re starting to see that and I think it’s gonna weigh heavy. It’s not five years so now 10 years from now 20 years from now and that’s going to cause us again I think through technology. Maybe you won’t go to a nursing home skilled care for someone to come in and maybe it’ll be a robot that’s going to be your companion to help you get your shoes on, make sure you’re taking your medication and the like, so I think there is some interesting trends underway predominantly are going to be related to the workforce. How do we use technology it goes back to one of the early questions how do you get the cost of healthcare down 70% of my expense goes to employee salaries and benefits and the like so if you want to get the cost down you have to take some of the people out of the equation so I’m hopeful that trends will be artificial intelligence more self-care that you can do more remote monitoring at home but I think those will be the trends.

Host: Do you have any advice for Fox students and alumni who would like to pursue or further careers in healthcare?

Kevin: Recognize that again you’re going to be entering into an industry that is so dynamic and you know Wayne Gretzky the great hockey player when he scored so many goals why escaped to where the puck is going to be not to where it is now so if you want to go into healthcare right now don’t study hospitals study again the logistics that we talked about or the remote monitoring, the technology, the artificial intelligence because that’s what your career is going to be made around 9 who could design I am ultra-proud of the building that we put up in the Penn campus the largest building in Philadelphia my goal is no one will ever have to use it in the future so if you want to get into healthcare you gotta have that spirit to think about what could be in healthcare delivery and try to help move the industry there. Other than that, just work at Penn.

 Host: But get your MBA or DBA at the Fox School of Business.

Kevin: Exactly I think the other part about healthcare is renewal. I go back to the 60s and 70s in my childhood there was social activism that we had in the 60s and 70s so I think we missed the mark. But if you’re going to go into healthcare I hope you will bring with you your social activism gene because we have to address health equity, health inequity, gun violence, opioid disorder—I mean it can’t just be that I bragged about our vaccine invention. It can’t just be that. It also has to be so many of these social trends that as a nation we have to face up to and I think healthcare particularly academic Medical Center should be leading more of that charge because we see the downside negative effects in our trauma center in our behavioral health wards of opioids and in the emergency room and the only way we’re going to fix that is to get upstream. You wanna get into healthcare think about the future delivery system that the current and bring your social activism gene with you.

Host: And also, the ability to collaborate in the healthcare community right across other at other hospitals even competitive hospitals it seems like there’s this spirit of that in Philadelphia.

Kevin: Steve Klesko, Mike Young at Temple we all talked about this the first thing we did in March of 2020 when we knew this was underway is every Friday at noon we got on the phone and Madeline bell and Barry Friedman from Einstein and it started with I’m short of masks, I’m short on gowns and you know alright I have enough for two days I’ll send some to you but promise you’re going to get him back and everybody delivered on their promise and as you said Tiffany hopefully that collaborative spirit can continue forward and I think it will.

Host: So, in closing, I’m sure we’re all tired of hearing and saying wow what a rough two years but I’d like to end on a positive note. So, what are you most proud of accomplishing during this challenging period?

Kevin: I think it is one most important; is finally I think America is tilting towards understanding financial health and physical health are terrific but without mental health and mental security without behavioral health systems that it’s a pretty, pretty dire world out there so I’m hoping that ongoing part of this pandemic will be the American healthcare system finally doing to better job of taking care of again not just our physical health but our behavioral health and take care of each other and I think that it’s just critical and I think we’ve talked about it more in the last two years and Penn in terms of the well-being of our workforce and I’m hopeful that will continue and expand not just our workforce but to the entire community. The second and they say it a lot I’ll say it again I believe in science. Science is not political science doesn’t have a political party it has evidence and if as a society we follow that evidence I think we will be better off. I’m grateful to the Penn professors 23 years ago when they met at the copying machine and said what are you working on they said messenger RNA, 23 years later you’re able to hug my first grandchild because we were all vaccinated and that’s because Drew Weissman and Katie Karaok worked on this when nobody else had any idea what it was going to be and they didn’t have any idea so I marvel as I think about it at Children’s Hospital, Temple University at Penn medicine and all the location there are scientists right now in the in the research labs that are coming up with cures that hopefully my grandchild doesn’t have to watch with horror some of the cancer conditions that my relatives have died from cardiac conditions at my relatives have died from. So, I remain optimistic that if we promote science, if we fund science just like the vaccine cures and improvements for the human condition will continue to come out at the healthcare industry.

Host: I would like to thank our guest Kevin Mahoney for talking with me today about transforming the business of healthcare. One challenge for today’s healthcare system is to find a way to provide easy affordable and immediate care to patients while meeting them where they are. To achieve those leaders in the field must be forward-thinking and innovative. They must look for inspiration inside and outside of the industry imagine developing a way to share patient information across various medical systems much like the way restaurants share information on Open Table. This sounds like an enormous challenge and an enormous opportunity and with leaders like Kevin at the helm, it seems possible and very likely. Join us for our next episode of catalyst featuring graduates of our executive DBA program for a discussion and honor of women’s History Month. Catalyst is a podcast from Temple University’s Fox School of Business subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and visit us on the web at fox.temple.edu/catalyst. We are produced by Milk Street Marketing, Megan Alt, Anna Batt, and Karen Naylor. I’m Tiffany Sumner and this is Catalyst I hope you’ll join us next time.

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